[Mike Williams]

"Larry Serflaten" wrote in message %23peZJdIHA.4728@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> What trouble? The way I see it, if you want grass on your
> lawn, you sow grass seeds out on the lawn. If you want a
> forest, you sow pine, oak, or maple seeds out on the lawn.
> After a few growth cycles you'll have a critical mass that
> will re-seed itself, year to year.

But that's exactly the point I'm making. Micro$oft never ever felt the need
to "sow" the Professional version of VB6. The only copy of VB6 that ever
found itself being given away was the deliberately seriously crippled
Control Creation Edition. The "real" Visual Basic virtually threw itself of
the selves. And yet they are "sowing" the Professional version of VB.Net and
are actually giving away a full development version. Next they'll be doing a
deal with McDonald's to include the Pro version of dotnet in every Happy
Meal! Come on, be honest, they're obviously having trouble shifting it . . .

Mike

Archived from group: microsoft>public>vb>general>discussion

[BeastFish]

"Larry Serflaten" wrote in message#peZJdIHA.4728@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> "Mike Williams" wrote
> > Like I said, they're having a lot of trouble selling VB.Net so
> > they've decided to give it away free to various groups of people.
>
> What trouble? The way I see it, if you want grass on your lawn, you
> sow grass seeds out on the lawn. If you want a forest, you sow pine,
> oak, or maple seeds out on the lawn. After a few growth cycles you'll
> have a critical mass that will re-seed itself, year to year.


You forgot to mention fertilizer

[mayayana]

> > Everything you need to clog up those healthy arteries
>
> except the grilled chicken breast.. All I ever eat. I eat so damn much
> chicken, I should have feathers.
>

You mean that industrially grown chicken that's kept
in short cages so that their chest muscles will have to
constantly flex in order to increase the breast meat...
and fed growth hormones so that they mature in 6
weeks, the equivalent of growing a human baby to the
age of 20 in 2 years?

(I don't know what they're fed in addition to hormones.
I'm guessing it's probably pellets made of corn meal and
slaughterhouse sweepings...but hopefully not from those
mad cows in last week's undercover video that ABC got
hold of, showing what the USDA has *not* been doing
under Bush.)

And I suppose your chicken was probably grilled with
hydrogenated canola oil that contains traces of carcinogenic
benzene residue (since canola is too toxic to eat without
extreme purification) ? ...But that's OK, because canola is very
low in saturated fats, and that's what matters.

Yes, that should be good eatin'. At any rate, I'd rather
eat that than an order of English Fish and Chips.

[Mike Williams]

"MikeB" wrote in message @TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> I'm in lockstep with you on that. It's like the FREE
> cigarettes in c-rations during WWII. Our nation was
> inundated with a smoking addicted population that
> started the monstous growth of the industry.
> Just a different poison, same scenario.

Yep. Some cigarette manufacturers even got caught deliberately adding extra
ingredients to an already addictive product specifically for the purpose of
making it even more addictive!

Regarding Micro$oft's obvious intention of getting rid of as much as
possible of the "desktop application" market, we're are already seeing the
beginnings of the "rent an app" business, even here in the UK which is
traditionally a few steps behind the US. Adverts are already appearing in
various UK computer magazines where various ISPs and web hosting companies
are offering Micro$oft Office for rent at a rate of £4.99 per month (about
$9.99). No wonder Micro$oft are pursuing Yahoo so heavily and waving multi
billion dollar cheques (or is that checks?) at them. Advertising revenue and
web hosted applications and "rent an app" is definitely where Micro$oft
wants us to go today.

Mike

[Mike Williams]

"mayayana" wrote in message @TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> You mean that industrially grown chicken that's kept
> in short cages so that their chest muscles will have to
> constantly flex in order to increase the breast meat...
> and fed growth hormones so that they mature in 6
> weeks, the equivalent of growing a human baby to the
> age of 20 in 2 years?

Yep. That's the stuff. A truly disgusting way to treat anything that's
alive. In fact the EU are about to outlaw such production techniques.

But then I was reading a newspaper advert the other day for Sainsbury's, a
retailer here in the UK which is a bit more expensive and more "up market"
than the typical Tesco and Asda (Walmart) superstores, and the Sainsbury's
advert made heavy play on how nicely their own chickens are reared, which
are apparently allowed more freedom and are treated more humanely and which
are described as "happy".

The Sainsbury's advert showed a gloriously full colour picture of one of
their happy chickens. It was upside down on a plate with its legs tied and
it had no feathers at all and its head was missing. It was surrounded by
little roast potatoes and it had obviously been cooked in a very hot oven
for at least an hour. Nope. I would say that Sainsbury's chicken was
decidely not a very happy chicken. Mind you, at least it had probably
experienced a very short period of relative happiness, unlike the Asda and
Walmart varieties which have had no happiness at all throughout their
extremely short and extremely painful lives.

Isn't civilization wonderful. There are billions of other extremely unhappy
animals on this world of ours, and hundreds of millions of them are human.
Such a sad world we live in, where company profits and individual personal
fortunes are everything, and where nothing else matters.

Mike

[Tom Shelton]

On 2008-02-21, Mike Williams wrote:
> "MikeB" wrote in message
> @TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> But was the price $0.00 ?
>> Oh sorry Mike, The original VS97 was thirty five bucks,
>> which now is about how much it costs for lunch at Wendys
>> with the grandkids.
>
> Right. So VS97 was not free then. Good. I'm glad you agree with me.
>
> Wendy's (whatever that is?) might not charge you and the grandkids very much
> for lunch, but they don't give it away for free. If you walked out and
> refused to pay for it then they would probably call the police. And neither
> did MS ever give away VB6 for free (at least not a properly working version
> of it).
>
> But they're giving VB.Net and all sorts of other associated .net stuff
> totally free to students. They never, ever gave VB6 free to students (except
> the daft and virtually useless control creation edition), and they certainly
> never gave away the Professional edition of VB6! Like I said, they're having
> a lot of trouble selling VB.Net so they've decided to give it away free to
> various groups of people.
>
> Mike

It is most likely due to pressure from open source tools then anything
else.

--
Tom Shelton

[Mike Williams]

"Tom Shelton" wrote in message @TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> It is most likely due to pressure from open source tools
> then anything else.

Oh. Right. May I then presume that VB6 did not have any competitors?

Mike

[Tom Shelton]

On 2008-02-21, Mike Williams wrote:
> "Tom Shelton" wrote in message
> @TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>> It is most likely due to pressure from open source tools
>> then anything else.
>
> Oh. Right. May I then presume that VB6 did not have any competitors?
>

Open source was not nearly as competitive a pressure back in 1998. The
market is completely different now then it was then.

--
Tom Shelton

[Mike Williams]

"Tom Shelton" wrote in message %23Sm$MdIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Open source was not nearly as competitive a pressure
> back in 1998. The market is completely different now
> then it was then.

I was actually alive then, Tom. I know what was going on. Visual Basic was a
very popular language, and people sought it out and purchased it. Dotnet is
not popular. People generally do not want it. How many people do you think
would have moved to dotnet if VB6 and dotnet were both currently being
supported and were in competition with each other? Dotnet is just doing its
best to mop up some of the people who have been forced away from VB6, or who
have perceived that they are being forced away from it, and it is not even
doing very well at that. So now Micro$oft are giving away full professional
versions of dotnet, something that they would never have dreamed of doing
with VB6. They are getting desperate, Tom. Fairly soon they might even start
paying people money to take dotnet off their hands, as they did with Windows
XP in Nigeria. It's all about getting them trapped while they are young,
Tom. McDonalds are past masters at it. But even McDonalds did not ever have
to stoop to actually giving their burgers away!

Mike

[Tom Shelton]

On 2008-02-21, Mike Williams wrote:
> "Tom Shelton" wrote in message
> %23Sm$MdIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>> Open source was not nearly as competitive a pressure
>> back in 1998. The market is completely different now
>> then it was then.
>
> I was actually alive then, Tom. I know what was going on. Visual Basic was a

I was to mike.

> very popular language, and people sought it out and purchased it. Dotnet is

Yes it was. But I guarentee you that if VB6 was today, ms would be
giving it away.

> not popular. People generally do not want it. How many people do you think

No, you don't want it. I have made a very decent living writing
software using tools you say no one wants. .NET jobs (C#) are very easy to find
here, while vb classic jobs are not.

> would have moved to dotnet if VB6 and dotnet were both currently being
> supported and were in competition with each other? Dotnet is just doing its

Probably about the same.

> best to mop up some of the people who have been forced away from VB6, or who
> have perceived that they are being forced away from it, and it is not even
> doing very well at that. So now Micro$oft are giving away full professional
> versions of dotnet, something that they would never have dreamed of doing
> with VB6. They are getting desperate, Tom. Fairly soon they might even start
> paying people money to take dotnet off their hands, as they did with Windows
> XP in Nigeria. It's all about getting them trapped while they are young,
> Tom. McDonalds are past masters at it. But even McDonalds did not ever have
> to stoop to actually giving their burgers away!

Mike, you need to look around. Because again, your stuck in 1998. Look
at what VS is competing against... Java, Ruby, Python couples with fine
IDE's like eclipse all for free.

--
Tom Shelton

[Mike Williams]

"Tom Shelton" wrote in message @TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> Yes it was. But I guarentee you that if VB6 was today,
> ms would be giving it away.

Really? Where did you get that information from? They have been selling it
right up to the time that they announced its demise. The have NEVER given it
away.

> No, you don't want it. I have made a very decent living
> writing software using tools you say no one wants. .NET
> jobs (C#) are very easy to find here, while vb classic jobs
> are not.

I wasn't talking about C#. I was talking about VB.Net.

> Mike, you need to look around. Because again, your stuck
> in 1998. Look at what VS is competing against... Java, Ruby,
> Python couples with fine IDE's like eclipse all for free.

So Java and Python and all the others are new innovations are they? They did
not exist in the time of VB6? Sheesh! Wake up!

Micro$oft are struggling. They have lost the plot.

Mike

[Tom Shelton]

On 2008-02-21, Mike Williams wrote:
> "Tom Shelton" wrote in message
> @TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
>> Yes it was. But I guarentee you that if VB6 was today,
>> ms would be giving it away.
>
> Really? Where did you get that information from? They have been selling it
> right up to the time that they announced its demise. The have NEVER given it
> away.
>

Mike, what tools do you think your going to use if your a college
student? Free stuff from Adobe and free open source software -
basically very professional level tools that don't cost you a single
penny or tool that even with a discount is going to cost you $100.00

>> No, you don't want it. I have made a very decent living
>> writing software using tools you say no one wants. .NET
>> jobs (C#) are very easy to find here, while vb classic jobs
>> are not.
>
> I wasn't talking about C#. I was talking about VB.Net.
>

I don't know about VB.NET jobs, because I haven't really looked. I'm a
C# developer now. I gave up VB a long time ago. But, the tools they
are giving away to students are VS.NET Pro - which is C#/VB.NET/C++, so
this is more to do with .NET in general then VB.NET specifically.

>> Mike, you need to look around. Because again, your stuck
>> in 1998. Look at what VS is competing against... Java, Ruby,
>> Python couples with fine IDE's like eclipse all for free.
>
> So Java and Python and all the others are new innovations are they? They did
> not exist in the time of VB6? Sheesh! Wake up!
>

No of course they were - but, at the time Linux and FOSS was barely on the radar.
Now Linux makes up about 25% of servers and growing, it is the number one web
server platfrom. So it is only in the last 5 years (maybe even less) that this
situation has developed.

> Micro$oft are struggling. They have lost the plot.

I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that the reason they are giving
the tools to students, is more to do with competiton from open source
tools then "dislike" of vb.net.

--
Tom Shelton

[Michael C]

"Mike Williams" wrote in message
news:%23zoO9nNdIHA.748@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Really? Where did you get that information from? They have been selling it
> right up to the time that they announced its demise. The have NEVER given
> it away.

Give it a rest mike. This is just a different marketing strategy. They never
really wanted to sell vb at all, with .net they are really behind it. This
does not somehow prove anything about vb6 vs dot net. You're *really*
clutching at straws here.

[Karl E. Peterson]

MikeB wrote:
> "Mike Williams" wrote ...
>> But they're giving VB.Net and all sorts of other associated .net stuff
>> totally free to students. They never, ever gave VB6 free to students (except
>> the daft and virtually useless control creation edition), and they certainly
>> never gave away the Professional edition of VB6! Like I said, they're having
>> a lot of trouble selling VB.Net so they've decided to give it away free to
>> various groups of people.
>
> I'm in lockstep with you on that. It's like the FREE cigarettes in
> c-rations during WWII. Our nation was inundated with a smoking addicted
> population that started the monstous growth of the industry.
>
> Just a different poison, same scenario.

That's a much better analogy. (Priced MSDN lately???)
--
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org

[Saga]

Perhaps MS is using VS 2008 as a loss leader.

Saga
--


"Tom Shelton" wrote in message @TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> On 2008-02-21, Mike Williams wrote:
>> "Tom Shelton" wrote in message
>> @TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>
>>> Yes it was. But I guarentee you that if VB6 was today,
>>> ms would be giving it away.
>>
>> Really? Where did you get that information from? They have been selling it
>> right up to the time that they announced its demise. The have NEVER given it
>> away.
>>
>
> Mike, what tools do you think your going to use if your a college
> student? Free stuff from Adobe and free open source software -
> basically very professional level tools that don't cost you a single
> penny or tool that even with a discount is going to cost you $100.00
>
>>> No, you don't want it. I have made a very decent living
>>> writing software using tools you say no one wants. .NET
>>> jobs (C#) are very easy to find here, while vb classic jobs
>>> are not.
>>
>> I wasn't talking about C#. I was talking about VB.Net.
>>
>
> I don't know about VB.NET jobs, because I haven't really looked. I'm a
> C# developer now. I gave up VB a long time ago. But, the tools they
> are giving away to students are VS.NET Pro - which is C#/VB.NET/C++, so
> this is more to do with .NET in general then VB.NET specifically.
>
>>> Mike, you need to look around. Because again, your stuck
>>> in 1998. Look at what VS is competing against... Java, Ruby,
>>> Python couples with fine IDE's like eclipse all for free.
>>
>> So Java and Python and all the others are new innovations are they? They did
>> not exist in the time of VB6? Sheesh! Wake up!
>>
>
> No of course they were - but, at the time Linux and FOSS was barely on the radar.
> Now Linux makes up about 25% of servers and growing, it is the number one web
> server platfrom. So it is only in the last 5 years (maybe even less) that this
> situation has developed.
>
>> Micro$oft are struggling. They have lost the plot.
>
> I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that the reason they are giving
> the tools to students, is more to do with competiton from open source
> tools then "dislike" of vb.net.
>
> --
> Tom Shelton